Last week Wacoans turned out for two very spirited meetings soliciting public input regarding future growth of the greater downtown Waco area, a goal that is being led by noted urban consultant John Fregonese, president of Fregonese Associates, a Portland, Ore.-based land-use planning firm that touts its record of “helping make better cities and regions.”

Fregonese, who founded his company in 1997, has led numerous comprehensive plans for large cities such as Denver and Dallas as well as plans and visions for small cities with ethnically diverse populations such as Watsonville and Compton, Calif. He is currently involved in other growth projects for Tulsa, Okla., and the Baton Rouge region in Louisiana.

In a phone interview with members of the Tribune-Herald editorial board, Fregonese, 58, talked about what has struck him most about Waco’s potential for growth; the key to success when cities strive to broaden their downtowns; pitfalls for cities that seek to model themselves after shopping malls; and how being the son of a 1950s Hollywood movie star ultimately led to his profession as a city and land consultant.

Q I imagine most cities right now, both mid-sized and large, want to grow their downtowns. What is the big mistake that many of these cities make when they’re trying to tap someone like you to come in and work magic?

A Well, probably the least successful thing that’s been done in the last 30 years is to try to make a downtown like the mall. It’s an understandable thing because if you look at a mall, they kind of copy the downtown retail environment because you have people walking up and down the main street inside the mall and there are all these retail shops. Downtowns that are really successful develop their own market position and don’t compete with the mall. Attempts to make a downtown into a sort of mall environment have not been very successful. I think the one really great thing that has happened to downtowns that began 15 or 20 years ago but has become really strong this decade has been the addition of housing and community living downtown. There were actually a lot of instances where zoning prohibited housing downtown and people were just trying to use downtown for concentrations of jobs. Downtowns are a lot more successful when they look at a whole variety of things, including being a very special sort of neighborhood.

Q So what should downtowns like Waco’s be aiming for?

A Downtowns that tend to be successful will have a concentration of jobs, they’ll have housing, they’ll have lodging for visitors, they’ll probably have some entertainment and oftentimes they’ll have a specialty retail area — restaurants and antiques or clothiers where a lot of smaller entrepreneurs can bring a vitality to the marketplace. I’m talking about those things you can’t find at the neighborhood Wal-Mart.

Q When city and chamber leaders from Waco talked to you about what our city was like, what did they tell you about Waco? How did it match with what you actually found when you visited Waco? What were they right about and what did they exaggerate about?

A Well, they were fairly sanguine and said the downtown didn’t have a lot of activity. There are two things everybody involved sees as strengths — the proximity to Baylor University and the river. I think they felt like they haven’t taken full advantage of that. One thing that is interesting is they have this goal of having 100,000 people downtown and that’s high. When you look at the market forecast, you say, well, you could see that eventually. But I think it’s more important to look at a shorter-term goal, one that is more achievable, than setting such a high goal and expecting it in so short a time.

Q Well, I know there were some differences between what our local leaders were hoping for and what you were willing to forecast. What factors do you believe they’re not taking into account?

A Well, the physical change. The amount of building that would have to go on in the downtown would be fairly significant. I mean, the amount of construction you’d have to have every year would be really something. We’re not saying it can’t be done. It’s a good aspiration. But to be practical in the next five to 10 years, there are some short-term things we need to do. We need to focus on strategy that gets you going. But, yes, you also need to keep your eye on the horizon.

Q What struck you most when you got here?

A I’ve been to Waco a couple of times and spent some time there. The thing that struck me was the amount of vacant buildings downtown. It was pretty significant. It wasn’t just vacant space but vacant buildings. You can turn that into an advantage by making sure people can make adaptive reuse of existing buildings, which can be a lot less expensive than building from scratch if you approach it correctly. The second thing is the infrastructure is actually pretty good. It’s not someplace that has crumbling infrastructure. There’s a lot of stuff that has been done right. The other thing that struck me is the Brazos is really quite beautiful.

Q I understand that city leaders found some humor in your pronunciation of the word “Brazos.”

A: Well, I’m Latino so I wanted to say it as the Spanish word! But the Brazos is really beautiful in that setting. I think you’d expect more had been done with it, but that’s true of a lot of places. You know, rivers for a long time were seen as sewers, something for industry to dump waste into. It wasn’t really someplace you wanted to be on the banks of till basically the Clean Water Act of the 1960s. That’s when rivers became a big amenity. It has helped us see downtowns as places of recreation, as places for the community to gather. Water features are prominent in our hometown here in Portland, Oregon. That was the beginning of our turnaround in the 1970s, when the river was anorexic and killing fish right in front of the downtown.

Q In your travels, have you seen other mid-sized cities that compare with Waco in potential? Are there cities our size that you would advise us to look at?

A Yeah, I would look at Boise. It’s a state capitol, which usually means your city is very boring. But Boise has had tremendous change in its downtown and it’s really been able to make a huge difference there. It’s one of the better downtowns in the West. The population is about 200,000, so it’s in the same ballpark. Another city I would recommend is Fort Collins, Colo. It has a great downtown and has a great future in terms of its growth. It’s got a population of about 135,000.

Q What did they do that made the difference?

A Both have universities. Another place like that is Athens, Ga. Fort Collins and Athens’ downtowns started by catering to the students at the universities there. That made a lot of business feasible which made the downtown more attractive and brought more people downtown. Any college town is going to have visitors to the universities and the idea is to make sure those visitors stay downtown. And then you start to see other entertainment come up in that core. Athens has one of the best live music scenes in the country. But to get these downtowns going, you need a spark, something to get things going. One of the more successful things is students from the universities using housing downtown. Our market study said that’s the low-hanging fruit in Waco right now. That’s something that will attract businesses to locate in downtown Waco.

Q What do urban studies say about the future?

A It’s not like the single-family market is going to evaporate, but about 34 percent of new households will be one- and two-person households. A large number will be for people over 65. The second largest share will be people 18 to 35 who are going to be in the rental market. And if you combine that with the attitude of young people, especially those who consider urban living in a positive light compared to the baby boomer generation, that has great potential. I think the people who are going to lead in that in Waco are Baylor students and staff. Once that starts to happen, they might be the pioneers. That is, you’re going to see more people follow them downtown. There will be a whole second wave of people and the businesses they’ll bring.

Q Regarding these public input meetings, what’s the strangest thing you’ve ever heard at these things?

A Well, some of the transportation ideas can be pretty outrageous. There’s always a fringe element that is thinking of some really high-tech transport device. And it’s always bad when someone shows up with a bunch of pamphlets to hand out. The other ones you worry about are people who want to live in co-housing and have some really radical ideas like quads for older people. There are some wild ideas, but we’re open to everything.

Q How do you know you’re in for a real uphill battle to help a town?

A One is communities that have a declining population such as in parts of the East, places where people are leaving an area. It’s very difficult to come up with a strategy that is going to improve the downtown when economic activity and population are going downhill. Growth is a really great energy source. It’s a source of new investment. But if you don’t have at least 1 percent population growth, it’s very difficult to do much. And Waco does have that advantage. You don’t have runaway growth, but you have nice steady long-term growth you can use. 

Q Some of our leaders worry that while fears about safety downtown may be largely unfounded, public perceptions to the contrary continue.

A If you can start in an area and just get a couple or three blocks going, that helps. And if you can get some visible policing going on, people will feel safe. That’s often disproportionate to the threat. When people see a safety officer, they feel safer. Plus when they see other people, a crowd, they feel safer. Plus there are things you can do with lighting and design elements to help.

Q One of our concerns is how to take some of the ideas and energy we have for downtown and carry them across the river.

A Yes, Elm Avenue. Well, I thought that was an amazing resource. It was almost like Pompeii. It’s rare you find a business district in that state of preservation. Most have been heavily modified or torn down. With the right activities, I believe it could almost be an instant hit. If you could figure out the plan for that, Elm would be one of our first areas we would look at to see if we could come up with a strategy for it. The buildings in that area are a treasure.

Q Incidentally, our compliments regarding your mom, Faith Domergue, who was an actress in the 1950s. I saw her in the film This Island Earth.

A I was on the set of This Island Earth, which was the Star Wars of its day. The monster that attacked her at the end was named Reggie and he used to carry me around in his arms and play with me. Yet, when they took me to the premiere and the monster came out and grabbed my mother, I completely freaked out and they had to take me out of there. I think I was about 4. I just about had a panic attack. But in that kind of environment celebrity becomes normal. But the thing I really enjoyed about growing up like that was I got to see the world by the time I was 6. I’d lived in several different places. That’s why I became a planner. I got to the point of experiencing a lot of different places. You realize that the way cities are is not inevitable. It’s choice. You can do something about it.

Q Did your mother try to talk you out of this career?

A She thought I would be better suited to some part of the entertainment business, but I‘m really happy with this. And it’s a much more stable lifestyle.