By coma kid

Jul 28, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

Jim,

if there's anything i like, it's the exception to the rule, especially one i made up. so it's helpful for me to understand where you're coming from.

"So why is it so hard to understand that people such as myself who work hard and are far from wealthy are opposed to their hard earned money going into social programs that they don't believe in?"

well, actually, it's not hard to understand, not at all. but see, that's why i'm in favor of a progressive tax. people stuck in poor sections of north waco shouldn't be excessively burdened by immoderate taxes, period, because that money is most likely coming out of their bread and milk fund, not their yacht fund. but somehow i don't think you're in favor of a progressive tax, though... or maybe i'm assuming the wrong thing again. i am also far from wealthy, but my taxes don't really get me down. thoughts?

also, i want to make it clear that my taxes also go to support things i don't believe in, i.e. the war in iraq. but i don't disagree with taxation in principle. just certain expenditures.

Robbie,

"Based on your example, that mother will raise a child with the values of hard work, resiliance through hardship, and motivation to seek improvement in life."

with respect, i think this child is the exception, not the rule. a mother working 60 hours a week doesn't get much face time with her kid. i think if you look at case studies, kids growing up in these absentee parental situations end up getting their values from their peers, and those values usually pale in comparison to what the mom would be teaching, had she but the time.

"Conversely, a family that receives from the government raises a new generation of dependants on government assistance. It is a viscious cycle, and you have an entire generation of people that believe that government is your parent and its supply of assets is endless."

i think we also have different ideas about what constitutes public assistance. make no mistake. welfare, before clinton's reforms, was a complete disaster. when i come out in favor of public assistance, i'm not talking blank checks, generally speaking, because you're right. that doesn't work. but government subsidized day care? that does work. it helps communities. planned parenthood? hell of a lot more effective than abstinence-only education if you're trying to discourage teen pregnancies. tax credits for low income families? it spreads the burden of taxation more evenly, and allows poor families to keep more, if not all, of what they earn. is this a bad thing?

also, the welfare programs of the 1930s were not a response to people surviving and prospering. they were a response to the great depression. with respect, you're looking at this part of our nation's past through rose colored glasses. yes, people were damn resiliant, and bless them! they had to be. but they were only surviving, on average, not prospering. a few exceptions, sure, but still. they didn't call it the great depression for nothing.

By jim

Jul 28, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Coma Kid,
You assume that I "argue issues from far away. white flight. the suburbs. gated communities. rural areas".
I live in none of these areas. As a matter of fact I lived in one of poorest areas of East Waco (north 10th and Waco Drive) for four years before I could save up enough money to move out. I now still live within an urban area but with much less crime. After paying bills which includes the usual suspects in addition to school loans I don't have much left over. So why is it so hard to understand that people such as myself who work hard and are far from wealthy are opposed to their hard earned money going into social programs that they don't believe in?

By Robbie

Jul 28, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this

John, congratulations. You have raised a fine flock.

coma kid,

I understand that people struggle. I'm sure we could discover a littnay of people who could use some kind of assistance or some program to mae life a bit easier.

Based on your example, that mother will raise a child with the values of hard work, resiliance through hardship, and motivation to seek improvement in life.

Conversely, a family that receives from the government raises a new generation of dependants on government assistance. It is a viscious cycle, and you have an entire generation of people that believe that government is your parent and its supply of assets is endless.

Before the income tax began in 1913 and before the welfare prorams of the 1930s, people survived and prospered without government interferance. We were a nation of hard-workers and had the resiliance to improve life for the next generation. We owe past generations of Americans for leading the charge to create the best nation earth, without the aid of government assistance.

By Whats the Matter With Texas?

Jul 26, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Conservatives love to lie to you that they're for freedom. But a closer look at their record policies for the past 40 years shows otherwise. Worse, the last 8 years itself shows that they are totally anti-freedom. For example, there's no more democracy in Iraq now than there was before toppling Saddam. The BIG BROTHER ACT of 2001 dubbed "Patriot" Act followed by its stealth sequel in 2003 is another example of conservatives against freedom and civil liberties. I could go on but anyone who wants to tell me that liberals are against freedom while conservatives are for it has obviously not paid attention to the truth.

By tougher_times_ahead_alright

Jul 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

coma kid, grantburkevt, verez4hemp, michael, and sandy,

This kind of rightwing hate and war mongering is rather "mainstream" throughout the entire state. As a matter of fact, the most egregious example of people complaining about taxes is on the issue of illegal immigration. Folks like Robbie will complain about "illegal aliens" and yet on the same token mooch off of their back-breaking labor to give him all his toys and goodies. Sure, we all want to hire American workers but not folks like Robbie. An employer hires an American worker and the American worker wants his/her just wages and benefits but that employer REFUSES and even goes to the length of preventing employees from forming a union or even collective bargaining. Employer turns to cheap and even ILLEGAL labor to do its work at next to no wages or benefits because employer knows that those immigrants dumped into America have no knowledge of the Constitution. Robbie sees more immigrants as a result and believes the lies of Bill O'Reilly on "illegal aliens". Instead of blaming the illegal employer who should have taken care of business the honest way rather than going greedy and hiring near-slave labor, Robbie would much rather blame the immigrants just like he happily blames women and poor people for everything. Yep, that's right. Pay no attention to the corrupt system according to Robbie. Just blame them poor souls and torture them the cowboy's way because somehow it ain't "patriotic" to be peaceful and reasonable. Somehow, it seems to be "patriotic" to be just like cultists and fanatics. If this keeps up, USA will match Saudi Arabia on persecuting women and working class citizens on everything no matter what. And according to Robbie, people such as Ken Lay are "hard workers" and deserve all those corporate welfare handouts. I wonder what Robbie has to say about corrupt CEOs such as those of Exxon and Halliburton. So Robbie, who should be getting all them taxpayer money handouts?

By coma kid

Jul 26, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

Robbie,

i can definitely see where you're coming from, first off. student loans are killing me right now! and i also agree that america, like any nation, has citizens who've deluded themselves into thinking that it's ok not to work for a living. so we've got some common ground to start from.

here's where i think you and i differ: i've read case studies of people, often single moms, working 60 hour weeks to get by. this is more common in america then we would like to believe. now when you look at day care expenses, transportation, wages increasing at a lower rate than inflation, it becomes clear that these single moms are never gonna make it out of their situation, barring a miracle. and i want our tax dollars to help those people. government subsidized day care, for example (it works in europle just fine).

of course, you could easily say, well, it's that single mom's fault for getting pregnant, but the truth is, a lot of us up at the top take our knowledge of reproductive health for granted. you'd be amazed how many teenagers still think that you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex. and without targeted outreach programs to educate these kids, who may be illiterate, who don't have internet access, or who aren't getting accurate information from parents and peers, well... then you're gonna see more single moms struggling to get by, to say the least. but that's not really what you and i are talking about anymore. we're talking taxation and entitlement.

as i said in my earlier post, that i feel that "conservatives" tend to govern from far away. well, i feel like "liberals" govern from up close. inner cities always vote democratic. and i think the reason for this is that people who live in the city see that the current system isn't fair, by any measure. children born into a stable middle class family in the burbs have advantages that a minority child growing up with one parent in a working class neighborhood simply doesn't have. taxation, despite its inherent inefficiences, is a means by which we address the inequality. i might have to pay more taxes than i'd like, yeah, but let's not forget that i'm a white college educated american. the world is my oyster. so it doesn't bother me that my taxes are going to help people born into less favorable circumstances than me. and when my tax dollars help out planned parenthood, that doesn't bother me either. because when families are started by intention, not by accident, it benefits children, which benefits schools and neighborhoods and ultimately everyone. the benefits "trickle up," in my mind. it's an investment in our collective future.

i understand your concern that america has become an "entitlement society," but with respect, i think that the era of the welfare queen has mostly ended. clinton's reforms of the welfare system in the 90s are generally regarded as one of the high points of his administration, by members of both parties. it is possible to prop up the lower class without making them dependent upon handouts. but as for private donations to programs like planned parenthood, i think that's a great idea too, but private investment cannot, i think, keep pace with public funding.

By Robbie

Jul 26, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Verez and Grant,

I was right when I said "Liberals can dictate and spend other people's money with the greatest of ease, but once confronted with the challenge of opening their own wallets to support their own casuse they obviously deeply believe in, angry rants and racial epithets follow. Billiant!" Pay close attention to that angry rant part. Once again, I'll say "This is the lunatic fringe of the American culture."

I love liberals, they're so predictable. You're like the kids throwing a temper tantrum on the cereal aisle. It's just fascinating.

coma kid,

I can't speak for jim, but I can for myself when I say that I understand that there are people that struggle for the things that they have. Some of them may even suprise you. Many people stuggleing in America are those that have nice homes and nice cars, but run out of paycheck before the month's up. It's not just the poor.

The liberal mentality requires those with a certain income, many with any income at all, to involuntarily give out their hard work to those who have decided not to get an income. An increasing amount of that money is going to an entitlement society, people who live off on government money through various welfare programs.

Understandably, many people trapped by government income are trying to work their way out of it, get their own income, and become a productive member of society. That is to be comended. All too often, we see capable people with their hands out begging for what we have earned saying that they, for any number of reasons, "deserve" it. I am sick of it.

There is so much more I could do with the taxes that are taken out of my check, like pay off student loans. Which is why it is frustrating for me to see columns like this one where a liberal is whining because the governement is refusing to provide a service that any number of private organizations could provide through the donated funds of generous people with expendable income. Which is why I offer the challenge to donate the funds yourself, for a cause you obviously believe in, and not expect the rest of us to pay for it.

The two presidential candidates could not be more separated on this issue. One has pledged to lower taxes, the other has pledged to increase them. In a time when necessities are become more expensive, which one do you think will get my vote?

By GrantBurkeVT

Jul 25, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

The same "pro-lifers" who complain about "abortions" are ready to rally up the wars for oil forces. Verez4hemp, you remind me that America continues to drown in wars for oil ABORTING the lives of people here in America and abroad all the while banning a peaceful plant Cannabis that can be put to 26000 industrial uses. Heck, one of the uses is that TX could sure as hell grow plenty of hemp and easily turn it into fuel for autos, diesel or gas engine. All that oil drilling has caused nothing but cancer and fetal deaths and deformities. By the way, Robbie's and jim's gas guzzlers along with loads of gas guzzlers across the country emit all the harmful chemicals in the air causing even more fetal deaths and deformities and that's on the rise. To make matters worse, just wait until America goes from using light sweet crude to heavy sour crude and coal. And just wait until this country increases its nuclear usage. All that mining and building will require plenty of fossil fuels which will not only severely impound the environment but the SUPERPOISON the health of everyone to DEATH.

And speaking of taxpayer money, if jim and Robbie care about taking care of themselves, they ought to be calling for stopping the funding of the war turned occupation in Iraq. And let's call for an ABOLITION of the fraudulent FBI, CIA, DEA, FCC, NSA, Corporate Welfare, Chamber of Commerce, Big Military, Big Oil, etc ... We don't need the phoney "military" to protect us because they never did protect us other than protecting America from itself. And if jim and Robbie furthermore don't like what's happening to our taxdollars being wasted, they'd shut up and call for an end to America borrowing money from countries like China, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, etc ... to pay for tax cuts for the uber-wealthy, war/occupation in Iraq, "free" trade, etc ...

By coma kid

Jul 25, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

as long as we're dealing in this absurd "liberal" vs. "conservative" framework, we might as well throw in a few more blanket statements.

for example: i've noticed that those who call themselves "conservatives" tend to argue issues from far away. white flight. the suburbs. gated communities. rural areas. jim, i don't mean to discount the "sacrafices" you made, back when you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and provided for your own education, but it's not as easy as pointing illiterate inner city kids from underfunded school districts and chaotic homes to... the internet. i can't be the only one who finds this solution a tad simplistic. Also, if you might clarify the following point:

"What is so wrong with people taking care of themselves rather than always relying on government programs(taxpayers)?"

where do you draw the line? why, then, shouldn't people provide their own police and fire protection? if we start doing things this way, then the divide between rich and poor america will get even worse. and do rich children really deserve better than poor children? my answer is no. all children deserve better than the world as it is. but maybe we should just stop funding any program that benefits the community... as planned parenthood demonstrably does.

By jim

Jul 25, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Verez4hemp
Oppression? Religion?
Where did I refer to either? It is funny how some people resort to childish insults when their cause is flawed. Bottomline I am not enthusastic about paying for someone else's lack of self control, when programs (i.e. medicaid) already exist that take care of basic health needs for those unable to afford them on their own. I don't care who gets an abortion or takes the morning after pill or who uses contraceptives etc., however I am not enthusastic about paying for it. Mr. Young mentions that these clinics counsel women on how to get pregnant. I assume that involves the same information they could obtain through the internet or by a MD through medicaid. What is so wrong with people taking care of themselves rather than always relying on government programs(taxpayers). I support everyone's right to do as the may (within the legal limits), however I also believe that each and every adult is accountable for their actions.