Planning a vibrant downtown Waco: Q&A with urban planning consultants John Fregonese, Glen Bolen
Noted urban planning consultant John Fregonese, of Portland-based Fregonese Associates, will meet with the Imagine Waco steering committee on Feb. 24 to discuss top goals and vision statements drawn from public sessions held last year to gain ideas about growing greater downtown Waco during the next four decades.
Some of the most popular ideas involved reaching across the traditional boundary of the Brazos River to bring housing and businesses to both sides. Session participants singled out the Elm Street corridor as having a high potential for revitalization. Discussions also focused on public transit, including the possibility of a streetcar system.
Fregonese and associate Glen Bolen spoke recently with Tribune-Herald senior editor Bill Whitaker about conclusions drawn in the wake of last year’s unusually spirited public sessions about downtown growth.
Q Last we spoke, you hadn’t gone through the process of brainstorming in the public sessions you had in Waco. How did these sessions stack up with what you’ve heard in other cities in terms of enthusiasm and actual ideas?
Bolen: It was a very ambitious group. They were ready to become citizen planners. Turnout was much as we expected. We had food and a fun atmosphere. People got into it and really claimed victory about their particular ideas. It was a very creative group.
Q Was there one idea that prevailed above all others?
Fregonese: The theme that came out is there’s just one downtown. It’s not east, west, north, south. People indicated they were trying to span the Brazos and make it one downtown. Basically, that changed the whole design perimeter from reinvigorating Waco’s traditional downtown to really seeing it in a new context.
Q How so?
Fregonese: It means the Brazos is the middle of your downtown and access to that centerpiece is the unifying theme. When you see the designs we have, you’ll see it becomes a recurring theme in terms of where you look at your initiatives, how you design your transport systems, how you design your public open spaces, and so forth.
Q Our city has had trouble trying to get across the river and include Elm. The Elm area has lagged behind in a variety of ways. I understand there was a great deal of excitement about bringing Elm Street into the equation.
Bolen: There are a lot of buildings that many people have great faith in, such as the Empire Seed building, and those limestone sidewalks. They all have a lot of character. A lot of people can really see that coming back.
Fregonese: We’ve seen this happen in other areas. That’s a very inexpensive and lucrative revitalization if you can just get the market over there. There’s a tipping point out there of enough activity that it could take off on its own. Basically, a paint job, some awnings and a couple of street trees, and that street would look great. It’s about 90 percent there already. I think some people are used to seeing it as this rundown area on the other side of the river, but if you look at what Sixth Street or Fourth Street in Austin looked like before, they were a lot more beat-up than old Elm. I think you’ve got a tremendous amount of potential and market ability for an entertainment district there. It’s a matter of putting the essentials together to get it going. It’ll take off.
Bolen: One big component we’re looking at is how to use some sort of public transportation circulator device to help people move from business to business and to housing in the downtown area. That’s part of the catalyst needed to jump-start Elm.
Fregonese: That was a really recurring theme. People are really interested in integrating a transit system that links together Baylor University, the downtown and Elm into one integrated place where you could really use all those places as one. You might be in different districts but you’re moving through it all the time without a lot of hassle — not even the hassle of getting into your car and driving to another parking lot but actually hopping a streetcar and going to the very next spot.
Q There may be interest in different sorts of public transportation, but I see few people on the buses they now have between Baylor and downtown. Is this something people have to warm up to?
Fregonese: I don’t know the ridership of that but certainly the kind of systems we’re talking about are the kinds of things that have been successfully placed in other cities. Boise and Little Rock have great systems and there are parts of Cleveland that have a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit).
Bolen: We’re looking at transit technologies that are a little more exciting.
Fregonese: Not only that, they’re predictable, they’re visible and they’re frequent. What you need to do is get a transit system that is comfortable and frequent enough that you don’t have to look at a timetable. There could be other tools like an iPhone app that you can punch and it tells you when the next one is going to be there. If it’s more relaxing (than walking), less hassle and it’s air-conditioned, it could be quite pleasant. I thought the transit system in Waco was doing quite well. I think there’s a lot of potential if you look at Baylor and the downtown and the market. We’re designing this plan to be built around facilities where there’s a market for it in the next 10 years. Yes, there’s a vision of a much larger downtown also, but the first steps are going to be much more pragmatic. You’ve got to have a market where investors will be willing to invest. We have hope that a lot of big things will happen just in the first five years of this plan.
Q There’s been a lot of talk lately about a streetcar system, which some of our city leaders see as a key developmental concept. They’ve talked a lot about the successes of the streetcar system in Portland and how it really invigorated much of that city.
Fregonese: It goes right by our front door so we’re definitely experienced with it. It was designed and put into place in part to stimulate development, which is how streetcars were done originally. They were partnerships with developers to open up new areas of land and make them convenient to centers of town a hundred years ago. So Portland opened up an area called the Pearl District, which was much rougher than Elm. It linked with the downtown where there was a pretty healthy market, so it kind of extended the downtown market into this new land.
Q So then this isn’t so much a transportation device as a developmental and marketing tool.
Fregonese: I wouldn’t say primarily, but one of its features is to link a fairly healthy market to one that is nearby but doesn’t have the same vitality. For example, by linking to Baylor, which has this dynamic growing market for students and staff to live close by, you end up extending the Baylor market to downtown. Downtown becomes part of Baylor so that Baylor’s health can extend it in ways, far more so than you could with any rubber-tired vehicles. Extending the downtown over the river to Elm would also bring to it that dynamic market system. The Pearl District in basically 10 years has had $4.4 billion of investment. The streetcar cost $50 million. So it’s a pretty darn good return on investment — 7,000 new (housing) units and 10,000 new jobs. It’s a tremendous growth, and it basically colonizes a new area that was just going to be tumbling tumbleweeds. What’s more, they didn’t use any federal transportation funds. Oh, and the transit folks did not favor it. They said they had a bus that was serving that area. And when they put it in the model, they said the maximum ridership they would get was about 2,500 a day — and it’s now over 11,000.
Q Everyone is talking about the federal budget and its record deficit. I know federal funding is often seen as a crucial part of all this. How is what’s happening in Washington likely to affect any plans we might forge?
Fregonese: You know, federal funding is going to be tough. There’s not going to be as much as everybody wants. But the amount of money put toward rail transit is the flea on the back of a gnat in the federal budget. It’s just a really tiny, tiny amount compared to the problems we got. But a lot of cities are looking toward their own resources as well. You can’t expect the feds to build it for you entirely. The feds can be part of it, but I think there’s an opportunity for Waco to use its own resources to build something as well and craft a partnership. And the more you can use local resources, the more likely you’ll get federal help.
Q I know some people in the suburbs don’t understand the importance of investing in a city’s downtown core. How have other cities rationalized this?
Fregonese: Once people start using the downtown, that’s not a problem. But if people aren’t using it, it all sounds very hypothetical. The best thing is to have some early successes, even if they’re small. Then people will understand that. The other thing is to point to other cities around that have revitalized their downtowns. You have a couple of the best downtowns in the country on either side of you, in Fort Worth and Austin. Both of those downtowns were just a mess 20 or 30 years ago and they’ve both come roaring out of that. I can’t imagine people looking at Austin and Fort Worth and not saying, “Why not Waco?” You need to remind people that Austin and Fort Worth didn’t always look like that and that people did something to make that happen, that it was a community effort. The other thing is to look at downtowns that have died. Then people can ask themselves: “Is that the kind of place we want to be?” I don’t think there’s an example in the country of a city with a dead downtown that has a vital economy.
Q Both the city and Baylor have put great emphasis on strengthening the partnership between the two. It has been tenuous at times. Is there anything this partnership should focus on?
Fregonese: Yeah, things like housing for Baylor in the downtown, trying to bring Baylor’s activities to the downtown. It’s better for Baylor residents and visitors to have a great downtown nearby. Baylor is one of downtown’s primary markets. I’m thinking of Athens, Ga., and the University of Georgia, which are right together and were kind of designed together. That has been an amazing symbiosis of those two areas. Athens has one of the best downtowns in Georgia and it’s because the University of Georgia is right there. The students and staff frequent the downtown and it has a great live music scene and restaurant scene. We did the plan there 10 years ago and all the mixed use in that downtown core is primarily people who are there for the university. It’s a tremendously important linkage.
Q In the meetings you had with our residents, did any ideas arise that are unique to Waco?
Bolen: Typically, a lot of people come to a downtown planning workshop thinking of just the central business district. Here it wasn’t just extending it into Elm and all that, it got into neighborhood revitalization programs. People were putting a lot of emphasis on the surrounding neighborhoods, especially in East Waco. We as planners assume those neighborhoods feed downtown, but it’s rare for the public at an event like this to extend their focus beyond the traditional main streets out into the neighborhoods that feed them.
Fregonese: There’s not many cities that have a body of water of that quality with four existing crossings — five if you count the rail — all close together, right in the heart of downtown. People really saw that and said, ‘Oh, we’ve got to bring this into all that.” And I was thinking about Baylor and stuff, and I went down and looked at the river. It wasn’t until the workshops I realized it goes from the edge to the center of downtown, that that really becomes a key feature. You start to think of other cities that are built around a body of water that size. All around the world there’s a number of them. It’s the kind of thing that can add a unique character and distinguish Waco from any other city in Texas and most cities in the United States. They don’t have a key feature like that in the middle of the city.
Q Is there something that could torpedo all this now that we’re just getting into it?
Fregonese: The big mistake would be investing your early money wrong in something that is not going to spur economic growth. One of the keys to a successful downtown is successful business. Really, early investments have to be something that stimulates the private sector to invest also. I think the mistakes are when people try to do it all in the public sector and they build some kind of infrastructure that doesn’t work. The classic is they put in a parking structure and then put in flower pots along the street, thinking that’s going to do it. They spend all this money on beautification and parking. Just doing that is not going to bring economic development. You really need to capture markets. Sure, you need parking and flower pots, too, but they need to accompany investments that stimulate private sector activity.
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Lol, this mvp is everywhere, like black mold! But he's finally been fully-exposed now. Sunlight disinfects, people. So basically, mvp is a hypocritical idiot who: 1) Chides Whites for "White flight" away from dangerous Black welfare hoods to safer White burbs...yet he himself lives in a White burb, Hewitt. 2) This fool will furthermore drive 4 hours round-trip to nicer Whitebread Dallas burbs to avoid waiting 15 min in line here? 3) Complains about another poster "throwing salt in his game," yet all he ever does 24-7 on here is "throw salt in every (non-Black) person's game." 4) He constantly criticizes non-Black folk, yet turns a completely blind eye to all the faults of the Black community here which exceed everyone else's by 2-3 times. 5) Constantly hates on and resents White folks, but is just secretly jealous, envies and wishes he was White himself. Wow, talk about 0 credibility now. Did I miss anything, folks??? :D http://www.wacotrib.com/news/money/La-Fiesta-owner-to-open-downtown-eatery-as-Olive-Branch-moves.html
Lol, mvp is apparently a hypocritical pro-Black "diversity" advocate - who lives in lily-White Hewitt because he wants good public schools. Uh, and just why do you think those schools in lily-White Hewwitt are good, mvp? Because they have so many Blacks - or because they lack so many Blacks?
Mr. Fregonese has a cavalier attitude towards federal taxpayer money commenting that the amount for streetcars is "...a flea on the back of a gnat." Well, our nation is covered in fleas. A few mil may not seem like much to hustlers like Mr. Fregonese but that's money taxpayers could use for their retirement, for their elderly parents, for their children. The local taxpayer money that would be spent on streetcars would better serve all Wacoans by providing for more police who are overwhelmed most weekend nights in East Waco where they just try to maintain order; not enforce the law.
If East Waco isn't capable of keeping itself in good maintenance, then they sure won't be able to keep anything new built there in good maintenance either. It's up to them to prove they can keep their own backyard out of disrepair (highly unlikely). Don't waste tax dollars in that sinkhole. All you'll be doing is feeding crack habits and thug babies.
How about just a big pedestrian bridge over I-35 between Baylor & downtown?
Waco could have been like Fort Worth had it better leadership. It's not too late though. Let's use it as our role model. They have a very clean, tourist-friendly museum, park & zoo district. Very livable, safe town with no slums, section 8 housing or ghettos. Model proven successes, no need to reinvent the wheel here.
"Excuse me, but some of you forget that East Waco is part of Waco. So, Waco should get their act together and clean up East Waco to benefit all" --> Life is like Survivor. If one person is not even pulling their own weight, it becomes a double-whammy. Because they are causing the team to lag due to their own incompetence...as well as requiring others so shoulder an additional burden as well. Quit asking for bailouts from other responsible, self-sufficient taxpayers and REAP WHAT YOU SOW. Enough with this municipal welfare. Clean your hood, start your own legit businesses, stop popping out so many out-of-wedlock rugrats. And within 1 generation East Waco will SHINE. But just throwing more money at a burning fire is just enabling and fueling it to burn even more. NOT solving it.
"Does the consultant firm know that there are two new section 8 housing projects approved downtown?" c - agreed. PLEASE, no more section 8 housing and subsidized slums in Waco!!!
I can only go by what I have been told. Miller Brewing Company was all set to build their brewery in Waco. Then suddenly, someone did not mind the glass plant making beer bottles, they just didn't want any company here to be filling them. I wonder who had the influence there? When TCU burned in 1914, they asked Waco to help them rebuild their school. Waco refused. Fort Worth told them to come on up, and they would help them. I wonder who wanted to be the only college in town? I have also heard from business owners that Waco is too difficult to deal with which has cost us many jobs as well. I will not challenge that. But, in my opinion, Baylor has a lot more influence as to how this city operates and what is allowed in and what is not allowed in than anyone cares to acknowledge. I have said before and will say again, this whole downtown revitalization business is Baylor centric while the rest of Waco falls into decay. Why people stay here for low paying jobs is something I will never understand. One of the best ones I heard was on a major TV cable channel when they were talking about Dr. Pepper. Waco is the home of Dr. Pepper, and they showed the Dr. Pepper museum. The kick in the teeth was "Dr. Pepper eventually outgrew Waco and moved to Dallas". Also, whatever happened to the Old Corner Drug Store where it was invented? Did it fall down, was it torn down, or did the 53 tornado take it out? I sure would like to know, because that would have been a worldwide attraction today. Even decades ago, Waco leaders were too short-sighted to realize that. The museum we have in the old bottling company is great, but it still does not compare to having the original drug store where it was actually created. When it comes to public transportation whether it be streetcars, trolley buses, regular buses, some type of public transport downtown needs to be discussed now, not 20 years from now. In Dallas, DART wasn't built in a day.
Well c, I just look at the fact that Baylor is an institution. Baylor has been in Waco over 100 years. Look at the state of Waco. One should figure that as a so called "prestigious" university that it would have been able to use some of its "clout" to draw some kind of major business. Be it research, industry, something. But over a period of 100 years there is nothing substantial to show but hard times poor people and poor communities. All this before the economic downturn. When wind of something susbstantial is on the horizon, the city of Waco goes out of its way to put the Baylor name on a sign or a contract when in fact Baylor does none of the ground work or has any clout to draw in anything. If Space X becomes "big" watch Baylor try to get it's name name on things while doing no ground work. Drawing businesses like Dollar General, Chuy's, Cheddar's, that doesn't count for anything. In a nutshell, Baylor is just a lot of hype. Baylor contributes to Waco's problems by ways of it doing nothing for the city. People say Baylor provides jobs. Okay, so does Time Manufacturing. So does Wal-Mart, So does Cefco. If my point isn't clear yet, check this out. Some small towns in the sticks progress more than Waco does, and these towns don't even have a university. Time to sign off now.
Ricky Bobby, Random, Jethro, Elmer Fudd, or whichever name you will claim why don't you go play guitar hero or something. Do you not have any friends that you can call up. Nobody invited you over to watch the NBA allstar game? Why don't you call up John Fregonese and see what he's up to. In the meantime, I'll let you type your little heart out. It's only a comment section dude. No money to be made here. A bit of advice though...Move on from the LOL world, it's played out now. Waco Wish It Did.
most valuable player, could you please clarify your reasoning behind believing that Baylor is the blame for Waco's problems. Can you describe situations in which Baylor prevented new development from coming to Waco? I'm trying to look at this open minded and cannot understand how Baylor could be at fault. I am a downtown merchant and my dealings with the city almost made me choose to move elsewhere. Others including 4 other new downtown merchants have similiar stories. In fact, one merchant is considering moving due to the city's harrassment. I have rock solid evidence of why businesses do not move to Waco, what is yours?
most valuable player...LOL!!! You are a joke! I don't know you personally, but the comments you've posted (past, present, and I'm sure in the future) make that a good thing. This is the last shot at you. So play nice now... and leave poor WISD out of this. Hahaha! WACO WE DO!!!!
Fort Worth has downtown trolleys similar that runs at Baylor, wood-panel sides and all. They are not on rails, but rubber-tired vehicles that traverse over four routes in downtown, with other routes going to the arts district. Cost of the downtown one, 50 cents for seriors. Very popular, less costly than installing rails and overhead electric wires to operate them. Hurray for Portland, OR, and the other large metro cities over the U.S., but get real. Waco is not in the league with those metros. Oh, Chattanooga, TN has free, electric buses operating on downtown too.
Ok Random... apparently you're bored so I'll entertain your comments for a minute. First of all I said every day man as in just a normal guy. Not every man. I guess your WISD education didn't let you comprehend that. If it makes you feel better, I'll be Carlton Banks. Who do you want to be? Ricky Bobby??... This article isn't about me. Say something positive or negative and keep it moving. Not too hard is it? Now let me get back to Sanford and Son.
You speak of one man's observations, not everyman's. Why not use the name Carlton Banks... seems to fit you better. Hahaha!
Why yes I did Random... Waco Tribune reader. I see you're observant..My comments aren't lame. They're an everyday man's observation.
most valuable player, did you use to go by the screen name of 'eye in the sky'? Your comments sound just like 'eye'... LAME!!!
Well c, I have a college education from the great Tx A &M in College Station. I would not bet the farm on Baylor. Ever. Waco constantly hears the yada yada yada replies from fans of Baylor all the time. Bill Whitaker, I'm gonna sit on the sideline and complain about Waco until I see a reason not to.
There has been big companies that attempted to build in Waco but after dealing with the city, decided against it. Baylor does not have control of businesses coming into Waco. Why do Baylor students have more money to spend? Alot of their parents have furthered their careers by educating themselves thus being in a better position to provide for their families. Others like myself, took out loans to go to college. Loans that I repaid to help others have money to go to college. More companies mean better pay and this is the responsibility of the city.
Waco would have been better off without Baylor. Those school was a failure in Independence, and it has been a failure here too. If Baylor weren't here, a lot of those big name companies would have relocated here instead of somewhere else. And, don't give me that how much money they spend here garbage. Everyone knows as well as I do that they go to Dallas, Austin, Houston, or elsewhere to spend their money. If Baylor were propping Waco up, then why the heck is everyone in town dirt poor except them?
Excuse me, but some of you forget that East Waco is part of Waco. So, Waco should get their act together and clean up East Waco to benefit all. As for the Pre-War Between the States comment. From what I can see on these posts and the Slave talk being passed back and forth, white people aren't the ones with the problem. In my opinion, Waco should just give Baylor Downtown, East Waco, North Waco, and South Waco and create a new Downtown in West Waco. If Waco can't fix it, then give it to someone with a few billion dollars who can.
If Baylor University was not in Waco, Waco would be a town consisting mostly of housing projects, welfare programs and such. These programs are paid by taxpayers. Baylor on the otherhand brings in individuals from larger cities that use their income to eat, shop, and socialize thus helping businesses in Waco to survive. The ones that blame Baylor for everything have probably not attended college. Regardless, if you are a Baylor graduate or not, graduates usually have a respect for most colleges and know the advantages that a college brings to a community. Trolley? Currently, there are more welfare programs downtown than businesses. Who will be using the trolley system? It may be a useful system later in the future but first the city needs to bring businesses into downtown so that people have a reason to use the trolley so that it can be supported. Does the consultant firm know that there are two new section 8 housing projects approved downtown? How will this revitalize downtown? With all the agencies downtown to help the poor, with separate overheads, salaries, all competing for the same federal tax funds, why not create one united agency so that the redundant expenses can be used to actually help the poor.
Time to bring DOWNtown UP! http://newaco.blogspot.com/2009/11/waco-on-waterfront.html
I think the primary focus should be on the Southside of the river. If Elm can clean up their own act down the road, maybe Waco can meet them halfway later on... Whatever. Otherwise, it will just be sinking more taxpayer funds down a ghetto moneypit. This development should be about what's best for Waco to put it on the map, not derailed into another welfare pork project. I think Austin (and also Fort Worth) can serve as more local, recent examples of revitalization and gentrification of decrepit downtowns near a campus into thriving social centers.
Well, why don't you actually read some of the interview? The ideas come from hundreds of fellow Wacoans who did care enough to participate in public input sessions rather than sitting around on the sidelines whining.
Well, then, try actually reading the interview, or at least some of it. The Portland group is basically organizating and structuring ideas from hundreds of Wacoans who did care enough to participate in public listening sessions rather than sitting on the sidelines, complaining and whining.
I didn't even bother to read the Q & A above. When you feel like you have to get a guy or a company from Portland, OR to show you ideas to improve downtown Waco,Tx something is wrong with that picture. You mean to tell me that you have Baylor University, one of the highest priced schools in the land with economist and such and you don't have enough faith in them to help you shape the city? I'm not a fan of Baylor in any way, but it seems like Waco doesn't have any ideas how to utilize its resources. This town kisses up to Waco in every other way, why not utilize some of the high priced teachings here?
The reason I don't go downtown is that I have to negotiate Waco Drive. Take the median out so the traffic can flow instead of all of the stop and go, stop and go, stop and go.
I have said this before and I will say it again, this whole thing about downtown Waco has one theme, its all about Baylor, and what Balor wants, and I personal don't give a rats rump about Baylor, what ever Baylor wants, let Baylor pay for it.NOT THE TAX PAYERS.....
Fregonese talks a real good talk about East Waco and Elm St. He fails to recognize one factor however. The Pre-Civil War attitude between whites and blacks in Waco. White Waco has not and does not want a single thing from EW except cooks, cleaners, cheap laborers, and no lip except "yassuh and nawsuh". To the Rich Wacoans, EW is not much more than a big plantation. Baylor seems interested in the land across the river but if they ever exploit that land then watch them put up a wall to rival the Berlin Wall and employ a security force to rival the Secret Service. Down in de land of cotton, old times dere are not forgotten.
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