Bible Talk

By KDF

April 2, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

For the most part I tend to agree, Pastor. I have found a scripture that shows there are folks who know nothing of the spiritual law, but keep it and are judged accordingly.

Romans 2:14-16 is well worth reading to show this. If anyone differs on this passage, please let us know. <><

By cantw82leave

April 2, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

Firstly, I do not subscribe to the theory that there is “only one true God”. Therefore, I do not believe that the Holy Bible is the only source for finding spirituality.
I personally believe there are many paths and I also believe that what happens after death could be directly affected by what you learn in life. (For that matter I believe you may repeat life several times before you “move on”.) I don’t believe Jesus Christ is a deity, and for that matter I don’t believe in Christianity’s concept of Satan.
This is not to say that I do not believe there are some valid messages in the bible, but I also believe there are valid concepts from other sources, Catholicism, Buddhism and yes even Wicca and Paganism.
I know this will probably blow several minds but it is a free country and please, can we have a civil discussion on this topic without proselytizing or quoting a lot of scripture?? I understand there are those out there who believe “their way is the only way” but I disagree. So to politely respond to your question, Pastor, NO, I don’t believe there is any “one way” and I doubt seriously that your idea of God would coincide with my idea of God.

By Pastor Joe A. Carbajal

April 2, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

This Entry goes out to CANTW82LEAVE!

Hey there fellow blogger- I hope you know how much I enjoy hearing your responses. Unlike some, I am not offended, nor troubled by your responses. In fact, that’s why I think my God gave you a free will- so that you could choose what you want to believe. I sometimes think “free will” is a wonderful concept my God came up with! Please do not take my comments about “My God” in the wrong way- I only mean that I am so excited at times about my personal relationship with him and how cool he is, that I tend to make it personal when talking about him. In any event, I did want to ask you one question: “what is the base of your beliefs?” It sounds to me like you have been on this spiritual journey for most of your life seeking your God. Does it come from you studying and experiencing many different paths, or are your beliefs just something you believe and choose not to have any bases for your beliefs? Please don’t think I’m trying to pry-like other Christians- I really want to know because you have such interesting ideas! Keep tuning in cantw82leave- this blog is about why we believe what we do and your perspective can only help “us Christians” understand people with different views.

By cantw82leave

April 2, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

OK, Pastor, I’m going to put this out there in front of “God and everybody” no pun intended: Personally I base my beliefs on personal experience, self study and what gives me personal and spiritual fulfillment. I grew up in a Pentecostal home but found it manipulative and fanatical. When I chose to explore other belief systems my family chose to reject me which unfortunately only reinforced my perception that Christianity was hypocritical and intolerant. (No expressions of sympathy please, this is for information purposes only.)I have explored other world religions and much of what I believe comes from ancient Indian texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Sutra’s of Patanjali (which can loosely be related to the book of Proverbs in the KJV.) I have studied yoga, women’s spirituality and Native American Shamanism as well as Druidism. I would describe myself as more of a Pagan than a Wiccan though I do not trouble myself with an endless cadre of Gods/Goddesses. I believe in the rede “harm none and do as thou will”. I believe in the interconnectdness of all life with spirit (God) and I believe that we are all a part of that. I believe that we are all here for a “purpose” and I also believe we all have experienced other lifetimes before this one. I think it’s hard for some Christians to understand that I don’t have to have a “book” to base my belief system on, that it comes instead from what I have experienced and observed in my life. Of course I read a lot, and yes, I read a plethora of Wiccan/Pagan based publications, but it doesn’t invalidate my spirituality that I don’t have an “official manual”. Any Questions?

By Pastor Joe A. Carbajal

April 2, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

cantw82leave

Thanks for your honesty. I implore all my fellow bloggers not to use what cantw82leave wrote to write crazy stuff against her personally, in other words Let’s share and debate our beliefs without getting so personal! Lets keep the dialogue flowing folks! Pastor Joe!

By KDF

April 2, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

As for canw82leave: All I can do is plant the seed the Holy Spirit gives me. I am not a theologian, but have read much of what you have quoted through the years, but have witnessed rebutals to most of it. I love Him because He loves us. <><

By Fred

April 2, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

Paster Joe….don’t you find a common thread in all the major religions? Three of the five majors religions worship the God of Abraham (Christanity, Judaism and Islam). Three religions….same God. The God of Abraham is the God of the Bible, the Torah and the Koran. Three Holy books….same God. Hinduism has a single, all-powerful creator…..Brama (their supreme diety). The Buddha never claimed to be God and seemed present more of a philosophy of peace and life than a religion. In some ways….Buddhism is the MOST MORAL of all religious ideas. I see the comman threads that tie these great religions together. Pastor Joe? If you were born in Northern India some 500BC (before Christ) you would no doubt be a Hindu or a Buddhist? Jesus and Moses would be as strange to you as a Green Alien from Mars? See what I mean? Just maybe….God deals with different cultures, different time periods, different geographical areas in…..different ways. Same God. Different ways God communicates with mankind. Afterall; in the Bible, how many different Covenants were in the Old and New Testiments? At least two right?

By Jeff

April 2, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the reminder Pastor Joe. Sometimes we forget that those who do not know are the reason we are still in “business” so to speak. We also often forget that we are just as sinful as non-believers and if we forget that, we are in the same boat as the Pharisees that Jesus often confronted. With that in mind, we need to keep in mind that the Bible is either right, or wrong, but not a piece to another puzzle. I am not a theologian, but understand the fundamental differences between Christianity and other religions. I would hope that pastors will teach this to their congregations, to take away the “mysticism” of believing that the Bible needs a whole lot of faith to defend. There are more than enough concrete, scientific, facts that support it. Sorry for the lengthy post all.

By Obadiah Sheeply, Jr

April 2, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

I certainly agree with Mr. Carbajal that the scriptures quoted imply that the God of Christianity is “the only way.” So, the question is, why must one believe these scriptures, i.e., the Bible? The answer provided is, well, because these words were given by the ony true God, the God of Christianity.

This is circular reasoning plain and simple. Only by “faith” can this argument hold water. I therefore reject it, preferring to believe that there is no God because I see no verifiable evidence of one, unless it is of the type “God= The Universe.” THAT I will believe, but it is not a God that can care about individuals or answer prayers. That there is no God of this type is the simpler, more rational, more in tune with the available evidence conclusion, which is why I choose it. I again stress that this has nothing to do with morality. We non-believers are as fully capable of living an ethical life as anyone else, and I dare say many of us do. No sect has the market cornered on either fully moral people or thugs. Many things “the Bible teaches” are on fact grossly immoral, and have been rejected by all reasonable people and modern societies. See Sam Harris’ LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION, for example.

So, Pastor Joe, I understand that believing you have the ONE TRUE WAY is comforting to you. But it is when Christians act as if there is something wrong with us who disagree or want to cram their religion down our throats that I begin to have a problem.

By :)

April 2, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this

cantw82leave: Appreciate the comments, really. Like I have stated in another blog topic, you seem very intelligent and well rehearsed on your debates. Let me ask you something but first I will make a few points. I have been a Christian for around 6 years now. I attended church and admired Jesus throughout my life, but all the hypocrisy and gossip that I witnessed was enough to turn me off of the church, just as you have felt. Even as a Christian, I sometimes questioned behavior in the church and really despised some because of the back-stabbing that takes place. All I wanted to do was learn how to love God and people again, but it wasn’t easy. I wanted to run out the doors and never look back. But, do you think its fair that you write all Christians off because of your experiences? You said your family has rejected and it appears that true Christians would have never turned there back on you, but show you love anyway. I felt the way you did and my family were pentecostal too, so I know what your talking about… it was so legalistic and confusing and after hearing you, I understand why you feel this way, really I do. All men are sinners and will disappoint us at times, including Christians. I think its ashame that no one teaches new believers this from the jump, that way people will not blame God when we witness hypocrisy in the church. If we understand that, then we may not be so sore when people offend us in the church. So, is it fair for you to write all Christians off and dismiss all its primary tenets, including Christ as saviour? Could it be that you are still upset with God because of people that hurt you? Really, I want to know? About Satan, well that’s the name he is reffered to, do you think he cares really if you believe in him or not? I mean, don’t you see that he cares less whether you deny his existence, as long as you deny Christ? If you say you don’t believe in him, thats not important. But his victory in our lives is when you can say you don’t believe in God or God through Christ. Last, I have always felt that you do not need the bible as much as Christians say (I know you guys are like what,this is Bible talk!). You didn’t want me to quote much scripture so I didn’t just for you. The first Christians had no bible, no new testament, but only an old testament that some of them, especially the gentiles, did not know much about. Yet God, revealed his plan through many, including none Jews. Paul even rebuked Peter for being a hypocrit when certain Jews arrived in the book of Galatians. So, even then we seen hypocrisy. Paul didn’t run away, blaming God for it, but pointed out the problem and corrected his behavior. Can you believe it… the founder of the church rebuked!!! Wow, it shows us that no one, not even Peter is was always correct. So my point is this; The belief in Christ should start within, not from a bible, which I believe in, but a feeling that something deep down inside is confirming that Jesus is the saviour. It wasn’t a book that made me believe! Now that I am eduacated about the bible, maybe there are errors or maybe there are certain small tenets of the bible that may have been tainted during the Council of Nicaea, I really don’t know, but I do know it feels right inside, and that’s what counts and if I would have gave up because of people, then I wouldn’t be here blogging.

By cantw82leave

April 3, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

-Apologies to all in advance for this loooong post- To Obadiah Sheeply Jr.: Well said!!! (Especially the reference to ‘circular reasoning’—maddening isn’t it?) To Mr Smiley Face: Hi! Glad I didn’t run you off! I appreciate your understanding and sharing that you came from a Pentacostal background!

I do not intend to imply that I have “written off all Christians”. Actually, quite the opposite. I have known many Christians that were a respectable representation of the tenets they choose to live by. They exemplified the teachings of their faith in both word and deed. I respected these folks immensely. Just as I respect our discussions here. I try not to be judgemental (it is one of my greater failings) and especially when it involves the actions of supposed ‘Christians’. Let me give you an example: I am completely put off by a business that publicly displays a Christian symbol or feels it necessary to include a verse of scripture on their marketing material. Why? Because to me this is nothing more than pandering to the Christian community for a profit. Are some Christians so unsettled in their faith that they feel the only way to validate it is by publicly announcing it or putting themselves in some type of exclusive club? Some of these folks need to understand that when I (and others) see this, we are even more critical of their deeds and actions. There are some instances where I will go out of my way to not frequent the business or service simply because it is a cause I choose not to support. It’s odd to me that some Christians automatically at this point move to the “oh you’re just mad at God for your past experiences” excuse. I’m not mad at God, I have a better relationship with her now and the beautiful planet she put me on than I have ever had in my life! When I first began exploring the evolution of Christianity, there were times when I had to walk away from the material because some of the ideas went so against the ideologies that had been ingrained into me that I was truly afraid it really was ‘the devil’ trying to ‘steal my soul’. While some would see this as a good thing, I didn’t. I began to realize that I had been indoctrinated, brainwashed and coerced into a belief system that, quite simply, was full of holes. There was definitely enough evidence for (very) reasonable doubt! I began to look around at just how this belief system is used for everything from profits to politics and I didn’t want to be a part of the herd. (Jumping off a bridge, anyone?) I do not dismiss the ‘primary tenets’ of Christianity as :) noted. I believe in the OT 10 commandments, and the NT teachings of Christ (good samaritan, etc.), but I do not believe that Jesus Christ is a deity. I do not believe he is part of a Holy Trinity. Jesus was essentially “voted” into Godhood at the Council of Nicea some 300 years after his crucifixion. I would also beg to differ with your statement about early Christians having no NT. Historically and scientifically speaking, evidence states that the NT books were all written post-crucifixion, that is the reason that Matthew, Mark and Luke all repeat the same story from slightly different angles because they were all written around 100 years after Christ was put on the cross. The notorious Council also chose what books to include in the “official Bible” so consider that the ‘early Christians’ quite possibly had access to and followed such gospels as the “The gospel of Thomas” or -gasp- “the gospel of Mary Magdalene”. Prior to that, there was just a man with a message. I do not argue that Christ was quite a significant figure, but I do truly believe that his message has been edited, amended and manipulated for a different agenda.

I don’t believe all men are sinners and therefore must spend a lifetime begging forgiveness.
I do however believe that stealing is wrong, cheating on your spouse is immoral and you should treat others the way you want to be treated. These concepts however are not exclusive to Christianity but instead can be found as foundations for most major belief systems on the entire planet. Just as not all Christians are good people, not all good people are Christians!

By Jeff

April 3, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

cantw82leave, I’m still as “messed up” as I was when I wasn’t a Christian. Now, I have forgiveness and removal of guilt. Sure, the more you get to know me, the more you definitely will find dirt on me. I probably would never make it through the presidential background checks by the media; however, you would never know who I am today by who I was 10 years ago. Now, I choose to strive to be a good husband and dad, whereas I used to chase money, drugs, women, and fame. I look at how I can help a homeless person, not which way is quickest to the opposite side of the street. I wake up early to read the Bible, instead of staying up late to catch a good comic. I take classes to improve my positive impact in the community, instead of ones to manipulate others to get my piece of the pie to grow larger. I could go on and on. My point is that you may think I’m a fool. Fine. Please don’t think that this type of change comes from the “natural progression.” Survival of the fittest would dictate that I would do the opposite, because I have the drive and ability to step on others. Instead, I use the opportunities I am given to try and build others up and lead them to seek the truth for themselves. This type of change can only come through Jesus Christ.

By :)

April 3, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

I agree, I am often on the other side when it comes to Christians and prosperity, or to promote business. As christians, we should try to always look for new ways to display our faith in the presence of others, instead of catering juts to our own, or for business purposes. They did not have an official canon though…all the apostles would have had would have been the jewish law, and a document that was called the ditache (I forgot how to spell it), you may know is better as the apostles creed. Also, you said cheating on your spouse is wrong, stealing, etc… based on what do you believe this? I mean, where’s your authority, is it yourself? It appears that you trus no one and will never be able to fully trust anyone because of people that hurt you. You said you were brainwashed, coerced, etc… have you ever thought that you may be coerced and brainwashed with what you believe now? Who indoctrinated all this in you? it sounds to me that you are just rebelling and refuse to let anyone see the real you. Well, you don’t need to comment but that’s my thoughts.

By cantw82leave

April 3, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I was in complete agreement right up to the last line. Do you give yourself any credit for CHOOSING to do those positive things???? If JC is what empowers you and motivates you to be a good person then I have no qualm with that. I just politely disagree that it is “only” a belief in JC that causes a person to be a good individual. Let Christ be your source, your wellspring, but allow yourself some credit (and responsibility) for the decisions you make.

By cantw82leave

April 3, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

To Mr :) : Oh, absolutely, there is always the possibility that my reality is everyone else’s dream (or nightmare, depending on how you see it. -smile-) But don’t you think that society teaches those same principles? Pagan parents teach their children stealing is wrong. Muslim parents teach their children that stealing is wrong. The concept (of stealing) is generally viewed the same the world over. Simply b/c it is one of the 10 commandments doesn’t mean Christianity has the exclusive on the idea. The Sutras of Patanjali teach of the Yamas and Niyamas (ways of living). Aparigraha or Non-stealing is one of the yamas and is translated as “do not steal from yourself or others”. It originates from texts that are app. 5,000-7,000 years old, so sorry, the idea was around long before Christianity. (If you want me to cite my source it is “The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali” Book 2 Sutra 29-30 translated by Sri Swami Satchidananda.)

By MisguidedToolbox

April 3, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

If you are only “moral” because you are afraid of being spanked by Big Sky Daddy, I’d say you really don’t act out of love for his children now, do ya?

By KDF

April 3, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

Read “Case for Christ”, written by Lee Strobel, an athiest who found God while researching his book, intending to discredit our Lord. He has written other “Case for ——” books since. <><

By GJ

April 3, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

Christians find it hard to believe that morality and goodness existed before the bible and can exist without the bible. My child is kind and compassionate and much better behaved than his good friends who attend a local Christian school. Your miles may vary. :-)

I try to be kind and a good citizen because it is the human thing to do, not to please an unproven deity.

By :)

April 3, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this

GJ and Misguided Toolbox: It’s not that most people do good because of the “fear of God,” it’s our human nature that causes us to act in that way. That human nature was created by God, so you can say it is Him who has placed our conscience inside of us. You continue to say you do good things because your a “good” person… if there were no laws or consequences when we break them or any God to punish us in the after-life, then we would all be doing whatever we wanted. That conscience that you boast about and take pride in as your very own, that is in every human being, has to come from somewhere. Whether you want to believe in God or not, its still there and was placed within us to attempt to prevent social anarchy and lay the foundation individually for us to make our way back to God one day, through Christ. It still cannot save your soul alone, not apart from Christ. To compare your child to others is also out of line. Atheist or whatever you guys claim to be, love to point the finger at us Christians who are bad examples and trust me there are many! I guess some of us have been given the impression that it is a religion that strives for perfection. If you think so, you have no understanding of the true meaning of Christianity, and have missed it totally. Also, as human beings, we are people of pleasure and for most, the result of being imprisoned for doing the wrong thing, is enough to keep us out of trouble. Your gonna be before God and try to plead someday that you were a good person and were better than most Christians. But not one person in this world is worthy, not one, and without a belief in Christ, your justification for your wrong doings will go unjustified and those individuals will be seperated from God. Christianity may have been tainted in showing people that we are perfect and never make mistakes, LOL! Well, that’s your problem, your making it too hard on yourself. I bet most of you that subscribe to your new found religions were either raised in church or were believers at one time but now you are not. Something went wrong within youreself, itsnot our fault. Maybe someone hurt you, maybe you strived to hard to be perfect, etc… but found that it was not working. So you abandon God and his church in pursuit of a new religion that makes you feel good about yourselves and allows you to live your life the way want. Proof, well, there is much proof out there about Christ and there is as much to debunk it as well. If you base all your actions on logic, and use no faith or hope in a belief in God, you will never, I mean never see Him spiritually. Keep looking for proof, I bet if it were to turn up, you would still doubt because your doubted from the beginning. By the time you get your proof, it will be too late. Good Luck!

By KDF

April 3, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Our Lord Christ is exactly who he says he is. If not, he was a liar of great purportion. <><

By cantw82leave

April 4, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Christians (generally speaking) seem so conflicted by their own belief system. On the one hand the idea is submitted that humans “do good” because it is human nature, implying that all humanity is inherently good, but then the author contradicts him/her self by stating that the Christian God is the only true source of moral behavior. Well, which is it? God or genetic pre-disposition?

The argument is made that Christians are not motivated by fear of their God but then the author uses phrases like “no one is worthy”, “…those individuals will be separated from God” “…God to punish us in the after life..” and of course, don’t forget the all fear-instilling ‘Day of Judgement’. These phrases and terms are based out of fear and imply some type of retribution for unacceptable behavior. (And how about that “..God to punish us in the after life” bit? Yep, I’m looking forward to spending eternity locked in my mansion wearing my starry crown. Why is it always about punishment?!?!) This is what is so troubling about Christianity for many ‘X-believers’ because many Christians will not admit that they are motivated almost entirely out of fear. Fear of “burning in hell”, “fear of separation from God” “fear of being unworthy”. Conversely, (or perversely, depending on how you look at it) at the same time, Christians are taught to revel in this fear and self loathing because they have been given “inside information” and will have everyTHING they ever wanted after they die (ie. eternal life, streets of gold, starry crowns, pearly gates, etc.). It seems like the ultimate scam; make a lot of materialistic promises to the herd that never have to be fulfilled because no one is going to come back asking for a refund and in turn the herd furthers an agenda by behaving/tithing/voting in the desired way.

It’s hard for many Christians to admit that acceptable social behavior was around long before the concept of Christianity. The concept of stealing or adultery has been punished in human societies since the beginning of time and was not necessarily impacted by spirituality or belief systems. These concepts are the foundations of civilized society but to suggest they were “imparted to humanity..through God..to one day make their way back to Christ” is nothing more than one individuals belief (faith), with no basis in fact. Finally I will submit a response to the idea that “if there were no laws or consequences…or any God to punish us in the after-life..we would all be doing whatever we wanted”. This is simply not true, if there were no concepts of good/wrong doing among humans, our race would have extinguished itself long before now.

By KDF

April 4, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1. <><

By :)

April 4, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

so what if its about fear, we should reverence our God, just like we revernce our parents, teachers, etc… You talk about basis for faith, your trying to reason everything. thats your problem. That concept of good and evil is placed withing us, it comes from God. Moral behavior, never came out of my mouth! You know that morals coem from all different sources. Its just that you won’t accept the fact that morals alone will get you no where. Its faith in Christ, and you don’t have it.

By KDF

April 4, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

By Pastor Joe A. Carbajal

April 4, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

Allow me to jump into the discuusion which I don’t like to do because I don’t want to keep you guys from talking- but this is good discussion:

First point: My bible answers the question of when the word of God made it on the scene: “in the beginning was the word” which tells me the world was formed by the spoken word of God which tells me the “Word of God was instilled in us during our creation. I think the problem is that we seem to be thinking that just because the “bible” came later, than somehow that takes away from what was instilled in us when we were created.

Point #2- While everyone was created with the ability to be “GOOD”, we also understand that all us were shaped with a sinful nature which battles daily with our ability to be good.While we may be able to do Good without God, I have personally found that the only way i was able to “do good” was after I gave my life to Christ, gave him Lordship, and began to live my life for him rather than for me. Thats the problem with “fleshly Christains” which continued to be bad- thay have yet to make him Lord. I do have a free will to do good, the only problem is I need the aid of the Holy Spirit to help me make that choice as often as I should, because in me, my rightousness is as filthy rags meaning, left up to myself,I probably will choose to be bad more times than good.

Point #3- I do not serve God out of fear-I serve my God out of love for what he did for me before I even came to him.My dad once said to me: “Son, if God were to tell me today that when I died, i would go to hell- i would still serve him because he has already blessed me more that I ever deserved”. Thats servanthood out of love and understanding and not out of fear or to get “rewarded”.Maybe our problem is that we have seen people experience “religion” rather than a true personal relationship with our Creator!!

Keep the dialogue going folks- this is good!!

By Jeff

April 4, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

All bloggers, Christians and non-Christians, last night I got to see a sneak preview of EXPELLED - No Intelligence Allowed! This really gets at the heart of this blog post. Featured notables are Richard Dawkins and other leading Atheists/Evolutionists as well as the leading Intelligent Design theorists. Baylor was featured and scientific facts were presented as well as ample opposition to Christianity. Also, the point of the religion of Atheism was presented. This is a benefit to both of us. For the Christians, we can learn why we need to more than be docile in our communities and for Atheists/Evolutionists, you can really get the views of your leaders down pat and get a good reason to viciously persecute Ben Stein.

By cantw82leave

April 4, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

I checked out the trailers for “Expelled” and my interest is piqued, I will more than likely pay to see it. Anybody want to place bets on if it will be shown in Waco???? (go to www.expelledthemovie.com—interesting stuff) However, while the previews seem to give one the impression that all the creationists want is a benign opportunity to share their ideas, I think the agenda behind that premise goes way beyond a sharing of ideas. I’m going to really make some of you angry with this statement but once again, remember, the discussion is good for all of us. ‘Intelligent Design’, ‘Creationism’ or whatever you want to call it has NO place in the American public school classroom!
If you want to teach your kids these ideas in Sunday School or on Wednesday nights, fine! Please be my guest! Teach it to your kids at home, send them to Parochial school, I don’t care, but I refuse to allow my tax dollars to be spent on putting religion in the classroom! This ought to open up a can of worms…

By GJ

April 4, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

:) - In never “doubted from the beginning”. I was a Christian until I reached adulthood.

Jeff - you should have invited us to the movie. I seriously would love to see it. I did read Dawkins’ account of attending the movie - hysterical! Will this get a theatrical release or are they only renting theaters for church groups?

KDF - I know you are nor trying to be mean but quoting scripture is not furthering the dialogue.

Pastor Joe - you sound like a good man - the world could use more compassion like yours.

cantw82leave - you are so right.

So - more light, less heat! This is fun!

By :)

April 4, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this

As a student of case law, I have heard and seen every possible argument and rebuttal from every Supreme Court Justice on the issue of sepration of church and state. Although Everson v. Board of Education was at one time the precendent, it has slowly lost its credibility and has even been noted by scholars of all spectrum, including seperation activist, to have incorect logic in its ruling and carry no merit anymore because of its strong absolute judgement. Just so you guys know, religion and state is allowed to an extent, as long as it has a secular purpose and passes a rational basis test. The burden of proof is now on the state and not the organization promoting state and religious entanglement. So tax dollars already go to religious organizations and are allowed, especially when dealing with education. So your money is going to Parochial schools through vouchers, tutions, etc… (See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, ) However, even though the logic behind Everson was wrong and I will always believe that it was one of the worse judgments handed down, there is good debate on whether we should limit religious involvement and we should to an exntent. But the hostilities that atheist, seprationist, etc… present towards Christians because of church and state issues, is not what the founding fathers wanted. We all know no one will ever be persecuted in America at the level it was. So, before you people that disagree with me start telling me about the Spanish Inquisitions, the Crusades, The English state ran church, etc… get real, you will never see that happen again. I believe in some seperation, I really do. I want people to choose Christ, not be forced or extemely coerced into its beliefs, that would not be what God wants. Free will is awsome! But our founding fathers in no doubt, including Deist such as Thomas Jefferson, allowed respect for Judeo/Christian principles and never want to completely remove every symbol of God from out country. Its history and is apart of our beginnings. I don’t want to start discussing case law too much, but I would be glad to accept any debate on it.

By KDF

April 4, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

Hi folks. Jesus quoted scripture to the devil in the garden, because as he knows, the devil does not like hearing God’s word quoted to him. “Resist the devil and he will flee”.

God gave me His book as a guide to my life. Where else should I quote from?? If you open your heart, read the prior blogs before I wrote, then digest the scripture, you will see I am answering the prior blog.

Thank you. <><

By GJ

April 4, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this

:) - wasn’t the “seperation” issue debated a few topics ago? Do we really want to rehash it?

In short, no on wants to, as you say, “completely remove every symbol of God from our country”. We just want the GOVERNMENT to be nuetral toward religion. We all get to play. Is that OK?

By GJ

April 4, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

“Jesus quoted scripture to the devil in the garden, because as he knows, the devil does not like hearing God’s word quoted to him. “Resist the devil and he will flee”.

Um, did you just call me the devil? I sure hope you meant something else.

By KDF

April 4, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

GJ, I don’t believe I called you anything. Satan is a single entity…used to be an archangel…sorry if you took it that way. But if anyone gets offended, maybe there is a reason. If you, GJ, don’t believe in the devil, why is it offensive to you?

I believe in the Truth. If I speak the truth why do you rebuke me for what I said? <><

By GJ

April 4, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

I don’t believe in the devil, but I can smell hate a mile away.

Pastor Joe, would you like to handle this?

By :)

April 4, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this

GJ: Well, seperation was brougt up by someone else in this topic, not me. And you are wrong, there are many organizations that believe in an absolute removal of all references to God. As far as neutrality, well, now Everson’s gone, everything is neutral, including for other religions. Accept it or go to anothr country. You don’t have to believe in teh Devil, he doesn’t care. just so you don’t believe in Christ is all he wants.

By GJ

April 4, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

I have spoken with many freethinkers and have never met ONE that thinks references to your God should be removed from the country - just the government. Those folks may exist, but I do not know them and would tell them they are wrong. There are, however, plenty of Christians who want folks like me to “go to another country” as you put it. This is a FREE country. E Pluribus Unum.

By KDF

April 4, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

Thank all of you. You too, GJ., or anyone else from the other side of my beliefs. I am here to discuss.

Calling on the Pastor to help is not a great sign of strength. I await the next topic. This is a great blog. Being offensive is not my wish. I just wish to “stand firm” in my beliefs. Believe me when I say “I love all of you.”

By GJ

April 4, 2008 10:39 PM | Link to this

Actually, I thought calling on the curator of the blog was a good idea - your bile was showing and I’m not here to be insulted. I was hoping not to have to elevate it to the Trib editors. Joe, if you are OK with what he said, then so am I.

I can take it, but I’ll try not to dish it out. All we need is love.

By The Daily Cynic

April 5, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this

While it’s been awhile since I’ve read Zelman, I do remember that it was built on flatly incorrect factual grounds, which the USSC relied on heavily in their attempt to decide as narrowly as possible. It had something to do with conflating charter schools or magnet schools with voucher (religious) schools, or misstating the range of choices available to the parents. Something like that. They basically got the whole context wrong, and that was fairly important in the case. At any rate, it was a 5-4 decision. Hard to say it was decisive.

At any rate, to claim that Everson has been widely discarded is patently false (unless you come from certain very minority quarters of the legal community). Not much more needs be said.

And remember, of course, that Everson actually upheld indirect religious aid in NJ.

Even if you do think, as many do, that the great majority of the legal community are lefty nitwits and modern Con law interpretation is backward and unsupportable, please don’t pretend that’s a consensus view. It isn’t.

Rare to see legal types on the Trib site, though. I’m sure you have an opinion on Heller.

By The Daily Cynic

April 5, 2008 2:06 AM | Link to this

there are many organizations that believe in an absolute removal of all references to God.

Oh, come on. Pure silliness. As GJ said, only in government and matters of public policies. (And there are plenty of us among both the freethinking community and the libertarian right, coming from an individual rights perspective, that think the Free X Clause is the more important of the two.)

I have no idea why mainstream Christians, who can’t agree on many things amongst themselves in the first place, would want to open the can of worms of what’s “acceptable” theology or not.

By Fred

April 5, 2008 6:49 AM | Link to this

I believe that there exists one, true God. I believe that the one, true God is actually Bigger than Christanity. I believe that Jesus Christ is indeed God’s son. But I also believe that God has many sons and daughters. I believe that God created everything in the Cosmos…….including Satan (the Devil), wasps, scorpions, thorns, cancer, pain, suffering and death. All things were created by and originate from God (even the horrible things that we fear and loath). It’s disturbing and regretable that no matter who you are (saint or sinner) you are going to die and suffer greatly before you die. If you live long enough; you will see your loved ones perish and your body will slowly fail in pain and suffering. Why did God create such a suffering, painful world? You’ll have to ask God?

By tcaines

April 5, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

The Holy spirit testifies to truth. If the Spirit tells you it is true,….How can it be wrong. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Faith is a gift from God.

By :)

April 5, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

The Daily Cynic: Thanks for commenting. I am glad to see someone here that is familiar with case law… makes for interesting discussion. Yes, orgs. are around, and they have an agenda to make the U.S. secular (which is removing symbols from public places but, its not working (see Van Orden v. Perry) but there are some exceptions (McCreary v. ACLU), which I have to say are probably good rulings. They were handed down the same day with opposite rulings and no majority, as usual. There are consensus’s on Everson but I wil not exaust this blog with it. But there are good arguments in support of it too. I know what the result was in Everson and it ruled in favor of the transportation reimbursement but interpreted the Establishment Clause broadly. Here is what it boils down to. Religion (all of them) cannot be seperated totally from society. It screating balance, thats what courts do most of the time. They do protect the minority and I am all for that. So, please don’t think I am a right wing conservative on everything… I am not. I like balance more than anything and case law requires that as well as being an attorney or judge. Also, i think Justice Black was the one that handed down the ruling… wasn’t he a KKK memeber? I didn’t care for his judgements or his personality. To absolute, and likewise, i don’t care for Justice Thomas and Scalia either. They inject their personal opinions way too much in deciding cases. I guess we all do but some more than others.

By Obadiah Sheeply, Jr.

April 5, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

“The Holy spirit testifies to truth.”

tcaines, this is essentially a meaningless statement. It has no content. The Holy Spirit cannot be demonstrated to exist

“If the Spirit tells you it is true,….How can it be wrong.” Words spoken by slave owners, suicide bombers, 9/11 hijackers and those who have justified all manner of outrageous behavior througout history, by both the religious and the non-religious. The spirit moving one to do “it” does not exempt “it” from being wrong, often tragically, disastrously wrong.

“Faith is the evidence of things unseen.” Agreed, by definition. But WHY, and I cannot emphasize the word too strongly, WHY should we believe without evidence? In practically every area of life outside of religion we require evidence to make decisions. Almost uniformly for the better, I might add. Why should religious beliefs be exempt? And, as noted below, what about when religious beliefs are in conflict?

“Faith is a gift from God.” Not it is not. It is actually an abdication of the good sense that our evolutionary history has given us. When “faiths” clash as they inevitably do when different “spirits” move us, then where are we? On what do we rely? We have only these hopes: our reason, our logic, the weight of good argument, and in areas susceptible to it, the methods of science.

By cantw82leave

April 5, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

O.S. Jr. : Right on! I agree 1000%.
GJ: Hang in there and don’t let ‘em pick on you. KDF: I respect your right to quote scripture but your scripture quoting is no more effective on X-believers than our scientific, historic and quantifiable facts are on you. We will simply have to agree to disagree and still respect one another. For me it comes down to this: Christianity does not give me fulfillment or answer some rather difficult questions well at all. I think faith is something that is positive in limited amounts but blind faith (which I feel most Christians have) could result in some big disappointments, or worse, your soul may have to repeat this level again.

By :)

April 6, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

I don’t think no one is trying to convince you guys of our beliefs anyway. This is “bible talk” so even though I have not quoted much scripture on this blog just to satisfy some of you that want to reason everything out, doesn’t mean they people here can’t do so. As far as science, historic, quantifiable facts, etc…. well, I have not seen any proof to what you believe once on this blog so don’t toot your horn so much. Besides your opinions, you have yet to prove anything!!! So, lets hear it… where’s your science, historic, proof on what you believe???? Instead of critisizing Christians for what we believe, prove what you believe and quit laying that burden on us. I have heard none of you do that, all I hear is critisism on Christianity. Go ahead, I’m listening. The bible is one of the most consistent prophetic books ever written, not saying there are not any ambiguities in it, but it truly is. Experts show “proof” on books like Isaiah and the epsitles being dated hundreds of years apart if not thousands and with consistent accounts of the same events that occurred during Christ’s period. He fulfilled many prophecies from the old testament years apart from each other. Now if carbon dating (which you people love to boast about when trying to prove evolution) on the manuscripts that have been preserved prove their time frame, how can you not see that Christ was not who He said He was? There is evidence, you just only look for evidence that disproves it instead of finding real truth. You read from authors that support your beliefs, you read books from them, you study everyday to disprove it, but yet you do all that work and Christ still reigns as king and is the most famous personality of all time. Every word from His mouth is insprirational and refreshing to me, His love for us is truly unconditional, and His grace is sufficient. He died while we were still sinners, He waits for us to enter the door, and He truly is the saviour of the world and will forgive all! :)